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#Deinonychosauria

Accurate, high-quality paleoart
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Microraptor gui by ~T-PEKC
68 Comments
The best of the best - in my opinion, of course. If you think something should go here that isn't, let me know.

I am generally picky about what will appear here. No sparse feathering, no lack of primaries, no (totally wild) speculative stuff.
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Group Info

This is a group whose purpose is to offer the best collection of accurate deinonychosaur art on Deviantart. This will include only high-quality and accurate illustrations of any dromaeosaurid or troodontid dinosaur.
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Jul 24, 2011

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Rules for submissions

For more complete rules & regs, see here.

  • Anatomy must be reasonably accurate. Follow skeletals, look at original fossils, read original papers about proportions. This includes things like correct skull shape, no pronation of hands, accurate placement of pubic boot, accurate leg proportions, and realistically limited tail flexibility. Violation of any of these major points is grounds for immediate rejection.

  • All deinonychosaurs are feathered. The extent of the feathering is open to some debate. Bare legs and neck, as in ostriches, is permitted (though not preferred) for larger deinonychosaurs. For those where the feathering is directly known from fossils, there is very little wiggle room. Primaries always attach to the second digit of the hands. Deinonychosaurs, especially the smaller ones, likely had a very birdlike body plan in terms of plumage.

  • Use common sense. No inaccurate environments or settings, no crazy colors or patterns, no anthropomorphization whatsoever, and no anachronistic species interacting (unless it's clearly a cartoon and therefore belongs in the fun stuff folder).

  • No images that were not created by you. No "meme" images. If you use a photo, a skeletal, a 3D model, or a free-use image in your submission, please cite your reference (unless you made it yourself, of course).

  • About the fun stuff folder: this folder is for cartoons, caricatures, PSAs, comics and joke-y stuff involving deinonychosaurs. While this folder isn't intended to be strict paleoart, submissions must still be reasonably accurate. Correct feather placement and avoidance of common mistakes is a must.

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:iconewilloughby:
*EWilloughby

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:icondeviantdinosaurs::iconfeathernazis::icondinosaur-fan-artists:

Accuracy: Here to Stay

:iconewilloughby:

Thank you for your input on the last journal entry, about whether we should allow non-feathered submissions. Much to my relief, the community's overwhelming reaction was a resounding "hell no!" In light of that discussion and also of external communication with a couple of concerned members, I have decided instead to be stricter about accuracy and more selective from now on in terms of what I'll allow here. This doesn't mean that every submissions has to be absolutely perfect, but the bar is slightly higher than before. For an updated list of our rules, please see the front page on #Deinonychosauria.

However, there is a caveat: at suggestion from ~babbletrish, I have decided to open up a new folder for deinonychosaur cartoons, PSAs and the like. However, these must still be accurate. The primary focus of this folder is one of humor and of educational value, not strict paleo-art, but I will not sacrifice accuracy for the sake of humor (i.e. feathers can still attach to the correct digit in a cartoon!). Of course this does mean I'll be more lenient about anthropomorphic expression and behavior in this folder.

With this in mind, I have two questions on which I'd appreciate some input from the community:

1. Is the "fun stuff" folder a good idea? If there's an overwhelming consensus against it, I'll ditch it. Suggestions for additional guidelines are welcomed.
2. Spec evo: Yay or nay? Whenever I come across amazing stuff like this I sort of want it here, but it doesn't count as realistic paleoart so I'm not sure.

Thanks everyone!
25 Comments
Accuracy: Here to Stay February 1, 2012 25 Comments 1 Favourite
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:iconhellraptor:
~hellraptor May 6, 2013
Hi i just wonder, if i would submit a correct dromeosaurid killing a human or so, can it be sub,ited to the fun folder or so ?
Reply
:iconyoult:
~yoult May 6, 2013  Professional General Artist
Is violence against Humans suppossed to be "fun" now?^^
I'm not a Mod of this Group, but the me the Spirit of it isn't to depict random fighting/slaugthering scenes but merely naturalistic depictions of the actual animal with it's actual environment.
The "Fun stuff"-Folder is for satire, irony and somehow more abstract things to me.
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:iconhellraptor:
~hellraptor May 6, 2013
well i thought that aswell just asking.

well i got another idea but i dont know i gonna do it. A feathery raptor that kicks away a jp-ish one like kiking out the old, brining in the new.
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:icon8bitaviation:
~8bitAviation Apr 25, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Hello! I have drawn some more pictures, are they accurate enough?
troodon
[link]

deinonychus
[link]

thanks
Reply
:iconewilloughby:
*EWilloughby Apr 28, 2013
The troodon looks great! The Deinonychus has a few minor issues, but if you want to submit the troodon I think it'll be accepted.
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:icon8bitaviation:
~8bitAviation Apr 28, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
thank you! :) That's just what I'll do.
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:iconalgoroth:
~Algoroth Feb 15, 2013  Professional General Artist
Accuracy on animals we only know from fossils. While I agree the skeletons should be followed, claiming to KNOW what these animals looked like at all times during their lives is silly to me. No pronation? I've yet to see evidence these dinosaurs could not pronate their hands should they choose to do so. They very likely did comparatively seldom, but where is the evidence they could not? Obviously, I've little interest in joining what is, to me, a pedantically oriented ideology. To me, pedanticism has only a small place in speculative art. And paleoart is speculative art. I just wanted to let you know my thoughts.
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:icontomozaurus:
~Tomozaurus Mar 6, 2013  Student General Artist
Firstly I'd like to apologise for Gojira5000's comment. He was overly aggressive, wrong on a couple of accounts, and brought in outside points unrelated to your comment for no real reason. I'm sure Emily would like it pointed out that he does not represent the Deinonychosauria group either (nor do I, but I'm going to try and give a better response).

The pronation of dinosaurian hands is definitely an impossibility for all groups with the exception of derived sauropods and perhaps thyreophorans (though there has not yet been a study on the latter that I know of).

For all other groups, the bones in the forelimb and the wrist were locked in such a way that the pronation of the forelimbs would have been physically impossible. If one were to force the pronation of the manus, it would result in the twisting of forelimb bones and the breaking of the bones of the wrist. It's not just a matter of habitual position and the animal deciding which way it would like to hold it's limbs, it doesn't have a choice in the matter.
Sauropods (and perhaps thyreophorans) are capable of pronating their hands because their forelimbs are arranged in a different manner with the radius and ulna twisted around one another, and the wrist bones in completely different positions. It's worth noting that these groups are also similarly locked in place, and would be unable to un-pronate their hands.
Gojira5000 was wrong in suggesting that ankylosaurs could not pronate their hands (they may have been locked like that) and that ceratopsians could pronate their hands (they could not).
For further reading on the subject, I suggest checking out any of Phil Senter's papers on dinosaur manual structure, here are two, one on hadrosaurs and one on deinonychosaurs: [link] [link](2006)26[897%3ACOFFBD]2.0.CO;2

That should about do it, I hope this was helpful in explaining the situation.
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:iconbubblekirby:
~bubblekirby Apr 5, 2013
If ceratopsids couldn't pronate their hands, then how did they walk quadrapedally?
Reply
:icontomozaurus:
~Tomozaurus Apr 5, 2013  Student General Artist
...easily.
[link]

As easily as psittacosaurids, or leptoceratopsids, or bagaceratopids or iguanodontians.
Reply
(1 Reply)
:iconewilloughby:
*EWilloughby Mar 8, 2013
You might as well represent the group, with your reasoned, polite and well-written arguments. ;)

And thank you for responding here, I honestly meant to myself but couldn't find the time and then forgot about it. In any case, you are correct that I don't support the rankling sort of aggression displayed in the comment below, though on some level I understand it.
Reply
:icontomozaurus:
~Tomozaurus Mar 8, 2013  Student General Artist
Happy to help.
Reply
:iconalgoroth:
~Algoroth Mar 6, 2013  Professional General Artist
Thank you for your reply; it is well thought out...and polite...and gives me a lot to think about. I am going to be uploading some sketches of velociraptoroids soon. You can take a look and tell me what you think, whether they're awful abominations or any good at all.

My main concern is getting the creature and the ambiance of the creature, as I see it to be reasonably correct and effective. Sometimes, I try to be scientifically as accurate--pedanticism at work..yes, I do it too--as possible; other times I speculate and have fun with the concept.

Take a look at my Puerta Disaster drawing and my comments to see what I mean.
Reply
:icontomozaurus:
~Tomozaurus Mar 6, 2013  Student General Artist
I am happy to be of assistance.
After reading your reply to Gojira, especially the comment "I can 'pronate' my wrists without having to twist my forearm bones at all" (I do acknowledge you seem to have written this before reading my post) and thought of a decent analogy. Here goes: yes, you can pronate your hands without breaking your wrist (you said twisting your forearm bones, but fun-fact, you actually do twist your forearm bones to pronate your hands!). This is because you are a mammal and not a dinosaur. Here is the analogy: try to put your arms horizontally backwards, the same way you'd put them forward to hold a basketball, but in reverse, behind your back with the "tops" (not the palms) or your hands facing one another. No matter how hard you stretch and push and force you'll not be able to get your arms much further than straight out to the sides without breaking your shoulder bones. This is because this is how your body is made, as a mammal. Now, guess what, some dinosaurs can put their arms back like that see here: [link] or any other picture of a flying avian with it's wings up. They can do it easily, no effort, because they are built like that.
Think of the hand pronation of just like this in reverse. You can twist your arms into a pronated position as easily as a bird lifting it's wings, but if a dinosaur tried to pronate it's hands, it'd be as futile as you trying to reach the lifted-wing position, as much as it pushed and strained and tried, it'd not be able to do it without the bones breaking.
I hope this makes sense.

On speculation and all that other jazz: you seem to approach dinosaurs from a purely artistic standpoint, and there is nothing wrong with that (I think your art is excellent artistically btw). I, Deinonychosauria, and the others you'd be directing your comments at, don't for the most part.
You see the difference here is we are doing different styles without knowing it. As Matt Martyniuk pointed out in a recent interview, there are a few quite different art styles being groups together under the broad spectrum of "plaeoart" without much reasoning. What you do, is pure art, with your inspiration in these cases being dinosaurs. This is not what, I for one do. What I do is scientific illustration. This is the reconstruction of the extinct animal in the most rigorous manner currently possible. Of course we are going to get things wrong, but the aim is to get it as right as we possibly can. Though the All Yesterdays [link] movement has thrown a healthy amount of good speculation into our field. Hopefully this should clear some things up a bit too (lots of hoping in these comments).

And yes, I'll be happy to take a look at any artwork you put up. Just send me a note or comment on my DA page and I'll give you a hand.
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(1 Reply)
:icongojira5000:
~Gojira5000 Mar 5, 2013
We DO know what they looked like at all times, we have feather and other skin impressions do we not?

Also, claiming dinosaurs could pronate their hands is a blatant lie, the anatomy of all non-sauropod saurischians show that they could NOT pronate their hands unless they wanted to snap the wrist and hand from the arm. And while palaeoart may involve a dose of speculation, it also implies you follow the evidence, and pronation is evidenced to be impossible for all non-sauropod saurischians and quite a few ornithschians. This includes dromaeosaurs, tyrannosaurs, allosaurs, ankylosaurs and a few groups of ornithschians, excluding ceratopsians and other ornithscians and sauropods, which did engage in partial passive pronation.

Pendantic, we are not. Supporters of accuracy in deinonychosaurs, we are.

Palaeoart may be speculative, but I would trust it more then random people drawing naked and inaccurate Deinonychus and passing it off for Velociraptor. And pendanism would imply we shun those who draw scaled-only deinonychosaurs, which we don't. We actively try to aid those who want to improve with the knowledge of today and not the knowledge of the early 90's. We don't twist people's arms to join, either, so the ad-homonym attack on us by calling us pendantic is moot automatically.

If you think that promoting accurate d is pendantism, then you have a skewed view on palaeontology and need to realize life isn't you're little sandbox dream where what you want happens, there may be things you disagree with, but you can't do anything unless you prove otherwise. Science doesn't take one person's ideals and run with them, science is a collaborative process. If you can't accept modern knowledge, then you should not try to argue with those that do.

If you want to speculate, you must do so within the boundaries of the organism you speculate upon.

Scaled and gorilla-suit deinonychosaurs =/= accurate deinonychosaurs and Accurate deinonychosaurs > Inaccurate deinonychosaurs. Ask Phill Senter ([link]) for his papers on dinosaur forelimb rotation ranges, those might set you on the right path.

The comments you made here reek of bias and mislead info, as well.

Oh, and remember we don't go around calling people who dislike feathered dinosaurs "inaccuracy oriented" all the time.

Nice job making us seem like a bunch of stuck-up asses, buddy. Too bad you got the wrong impression from this group.
Reply
:iconalgoroth:
~Algoroth Mar 6, 2013  Professional General Artist
I am not going to argue with you; you've already made my point. Animals routinely get into positions that their bones say are impossible. Please reference Sauropod Vertebra Picture of the Week to see what I mean.

I can 'pronate' my wrists without having to twist my forearm bones at all. Maybe dinos could, maybe they couldn't, but I have yet to see diagrams showing me why they could not.

And I will speculate on what I WANT to speculate about. If YOU commission a picture from me, I would keep it within the bounds you demand. Art I do for myself? I do what damned well pleases me.

And science often claims things that are ridiculous. Case in point--Deinocheirus was a sloth-like dinosaur that lived in trees, hanging upside down like a modern tree sloth. Look it up, no need to take my word for it.

I do not need to PROVE anything to anyone to do my art. However, many paleoartists draw/paint/sculpt sauropods with thin upper limbs, scarcely any more fleshed out than saran-wrapped bones. Why? "The bones by themselves can support four times the weight of the living dinosaur, and they walked slow, eating all the time, so they did not need a lot of muscle(nor skin nor blood vessels, nor nerves, nor any fat etc., to judge from their pics).

That claim, by itself, is pure hogwash, sort of like an architect who designs a roof to take only the weight of the shingles, because, after all, all the roof is going to do is SIT there. It's not moving anywhere, right?

If what you are is pedantic--a description, not an insult--then that is what you are. I am pedantic about mixing colors. If you want to be slavish to speculation, then fine--I don't. I was not and am not asking you to change your minds; just telling you why I won't join.

And why is that? You see, the rules to be followed are aspects hidden within your mind, opinions, in other words. Fossils are remains of dead creatures, which died in positions and states removed from that which they were in when they were alive. How accurately could you reconstruct the body of a cormorant from studying the body of a specimen that died from being smothered in crude oil then flattened? Remember, in this case, you cannot get to pics or videos of living cormorants, nor the living birds nor close relatives to the living birds. I am positive that you could do a really good job, but how would you know that another artist who leaves out a crest, for instance, is wrong in all cases?

Under these circumstances, you DON'T, so saying they all had crests is stating an opinion...you might be correct, but where is the proof?
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:iconanka97:
*Anka97 Dec 31, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Would you like to submit this to your group [link] ?
But only if everything is ok for you :)
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:icondinobirdman:
Mood: Seasonal ~DinoBirdMan Dec 25, 2012  Student Artist
Hi there! This is a newest member of DA.
As long as I like deinonychosauria artworks and now I'm added some watch for ya. As I wanted to say Merry Christmas.
deviantART muro drawing Comment Drawing
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:iconpsithyrus:
Mood: Joy *Psithyrus Oct 9, 2012
Thanks for the invite :)
Reply
:icon8bitaviation:
~8bitAviation Sep 30, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
hello again! I drew a velociraptor, is it accurate enough to submit?
[link]
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